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* US News and World Report…
Italy on Monday relaxed some restrictions put in place to slow the spread of the coronavirus after enduring the longest lockdown in Europe.
Following a roughly two-month shutdown as the pandemic intensified, the country reopened its manufacturing and construction industries. Access to parks and public gardens was increased, and funerals can have up to 15 attendees. Restaurants and bars are also allowed to offer takeout services.
Italy has basically reopened to where Illinois was under its original stay at home order, except for the 15 people at funerals.
And even with that heavy-duty Italian lockdown, the country has so far endured the deaths of 29,079 people, or 481 per million. As I mentioned earlier today, Illinois’ death toll is 204 per million.
…Adding… Thanks to a commenter for reminding me about this…
Pubs in Ireland are closed until at least August 10.
Pubs.
In Ireland.But by all means let’s open Cracker Barrel right now.
— Marc Murphy (@MurphyCartoons) May 4, 2020
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:23 pm
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Italy and Illinois can’t be compared apples-to-apples. Italy had a much older population and the percentage who smoke is higher.
Comment by Swoosh Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:26 pm
===Illinois’ death toll is 204 per million. ===
Next year it will be an interesting exercise to look at the deaths per million number by House and Senate districts, as well as by county — maybe also looking at 2016 and 2020 general election results to see if there’s any notable statistical difference between folks that embraced the public health warnings vs. those that were lackadaisical.
Hard to imagine that we’re living in a world where some folks are going to be putting the importance of producing pre-made inferior goods brand cake batter and marshmallows over the lives and welfare of their employees and their families.
Comment by Candy Dogood Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:29 pm
===and the percentage who smoke is higher===
I’ve seen reports that smokers actually have a better recovery rate. There was a huge run on nicotine patches at Walmart after that came out. Amazon has since put a limit on how many nicotine mini-lozenges I can buy.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:31 pm
Ireland has their pubs closed til August and some people here want to open up Cracker Barrel as of yesterday. Talk about spoiled. Spanish kids were stuck Inside for 6 weeks. This stay at home order is nothing compared to what many Europeans or Chinese have endured.
Comment by Glengarry Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:44 pm
Glengarry- That’s the beautiful part of living in America, like it or not. We want to be self reliant, I hope. We can’t compare to any other country. That’s why people fight so hard to get here and escape China. So they reacted far more stringent, doesn’t change the calculus that we can open more than we have.
Comment by Fighter of Foo Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:48 pm
covid mixed with tomato sauce and olive oil must be a deadly combo… covid and horseshoe sandwiches ..not so much
Comment by NotRich Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:50 pm
Social safety nets
Comment by Ok Monday, May 4, 20 @ 1:56 pm
“Italy and Illinois can’t be compared apples-to-apples.”
So many differences. In Italy, Julius Caesar is famous for crossin’ the Rubicon.
In Illinois, you can find a Lacrosse n’ a Rubicon in so many driveways.
Comment by Shark Sandwich Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:02 pm
“Pubs in Ireland are closed until at least August 10″
From Irish Post 5/3/20..
Ireland’s pubs and restaurants may reopen sooner than expected, minister says
https://www.irishpost.com/news/irelands-pubs-restaurants-may-reopen-sooner-expected-minister-says-184539
Comment by Donnie Elgin Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:08 pm
When the pubs closed in Ireland, I thought, “that’s it - game over.” If they close all the pubs in Ireland there’s no argument this is serious. Still, some just don’t get it. This is starting to make me far more Darwinistic than I care to be.
Comment by Lt Guv Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:12 pm
@ Fighter of Foo, you just don’t get it. This virus is a killer and it’s going to come after us due to reopening way to early. Especially in red states. The economy over my grandma argument is morally bankrupt and anyone who thinks the reopening calculus makes sense at this time is a lost cause.
Comment by Glengarry Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:22 pm
No I don’t think the order is harsh. It’s not for the rest of your life………it’s until we can get this under control.
Having relatives in various rural/downstate cities, they’ve thought these orders were outrageous. One said nobody is taking it seriously and things like pickup ballgames are happening, gatherings. Over the weeks I’ve seen pretty good increases in numbers in those areas. Seems like a funny coincidence to me………../s If people, even in lower populated areas don’t take this seriously, they’ll get bigger incidence and death rates. They’ll just lag behind higher population areas, having problems later rather than sooner.
Comment by Ano Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:25 pm
- Fighter of Foo -
You explained to me that your Uncle in Will County passed, caused by Covid 19.
Your thoughts to stopping the virus’ spread, with all due respect to you and your uncle, and family, makes no logical sense to your position.
I can’t reconcile if a family member were to fall victim and still see these precautions for others as unneeded, especially with an economic bend.
Again, my deep condolences, again thanks for your kind words towards me too, but I hope you can grasp my confusion.
OW
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:26 pm
Glengarry- Respectfully, if grandma was the one that was the ones that are not working, I take that argument. Working age people are not affected by the very numbers released. If you are older or immune compromised, stay home. Working age folks, time to work.
Comment by Fighter of Foo Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:29 pm
the spirit of American individualism is alive, well and often insistent that it be allowed to ignore the good of the many to instead focus on the few, or the one.
Comment by WeAreAVillage Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:29 pm
OW- He was immune compromised and was coughed on at the gym that he frequented daily right before the lockdown. The lockdown may have saved him if it was in effect certainly. So, as today is, my older family members should stay in as well. Those of us that can venture out to work, should begin. The economic damage is as frightening now. I can’t apply logic to the draconian measures when the data is overwhelming for older folks and immune compromised. Not the workforce, nor school aged children. A medieval response to a 21st century economy is not sustainable.
Comment by Fighter of Foo Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:35 pm
Illinois’ lockdown clearly isn’t as harsh as Italy’s. Heck, it isn’t as harsh as the lockdown in my native St. Petersburg. And enforcement here in Illinois varies widely in practice even depending on where in Chicago you live.
It would be pretty interesting to look at all of the factors that affect the spread. I mean, I think it’s safe to say that lockdowns drive down the rate of infections, but how long it takes for the peak to pass even among countries that have taken similar measures clearly varies. It may well be that how quickly you impose a lockdown may affect it as well (see Italy and France vs Australia and New Zealand). Even the relaxation of lockdowns seems to have different consequences in terms of recorded daily infection rates - compare Denmark and Germany to Austria and Czech Republic.
All of this is a meandering way of saying that it could have been a lot worse in Illinois, restriction on movement and activities wise. As Rich has pointed out before, what we have in Illinois isn’t really a quarantine (not is the state even calling it that). But it seems clear that even the harshest lockdowns can produce different results in terms of the number of infections and deaths (even if they do follow the same general plateun and decline pattern) and I will be curious to see people who actually have expertise in this sort of thing eventually find out more about exactly what caused those disparities.
Comment by Strannik Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:36 pm
“We can’t compare to any other country.”
Decades of virology and human biology studies confirm that Americans are indistinguishable from the humans of other nationalities with regard to COVID-19.
– MrJM
Comment by @misterjayem Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:37 pm
The stay home orders here are nothing compared to South Africa. Friend there got caught traveling when their lockdown was issued. Roadblocks to stop all travel. After about 3 weeks, he managed to get a visa permit to drive home.
Compared to that, we don’t have any restrictions.
Comment by RNUG Monday, May 4, 20 @ 2:44 pm
@Glengarry,
Regarding “The economy over my grandma.” First, That’s a straw-man. We are nowhere close to over-utilization of healthcare services and haven’t been. So no-one’s grandma is being sacrificed. Second, a lot of people’s grandmas are going to get sick and some are going to pass. That is terrible, do not misunderstand me. However, hiding under our collective blankets is in no way going to prevent that. This virus has been in the wild for months and no is even talking about eradication any more so everyone will come into contact with it eventually.
Lastly, maybe ask your grandma what she thinks. I asked my father, who’s already got some medical challenges and at increased risk. He thinks it’s (probably banned word) foolish to ruin the economy when his grandchildren are just starting out in order to “protect” him from something he’ll have to deal with anyway. Sorry, you don’t get to be the moral authority for everyone else. Everyone has their own priorities and their own sense of the risks they are willing to run. In the meantime, may you and yours be safe and healthy.
Comment by ExpletiveDeleted Monday, May 4, 20 @ 3:14 pm
- ExpletiveDeleted -
(Sigh)
You can’t un-die.
Explain “asymptomatic”
The rest is boastful drivel
“Hide under a blanket”, give me a break. Being macho isn’t immunity.
Herd immunity failed in England.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 20 @ 3:26 pm
—
Sorry, you don’t get to be the moral authority for everyone else.
—
Ah. Okay.
Well, you first, buddy.
Me, I’ll watch from my home. A place, BTW, where I have no issues staying.
Comment by Mr. K. Monday, May 4, 20 @ 3:38 pm
===Working age people are not affected by the very numbers released===
Um, have you looked at the number of nursing home workers and food processing workers who’ve been infected?
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, May 4, 20 @ 4:12 pm
=== Lastly, maybe ask your grandma what she thinks. I asked my father, who’s already got some medical challenges and at increased risk. He thinks it’s (probably banned word) foolish to ruin the economy when his grandchildren are just starting out in order to “protect” him from something he’ll have to deal with anyway.===
“Die for the economy” is the Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick of Texas’ thoughts.
It was silly to say “some should die for money” when Mr. Patrick said it, it’s as silly when others say it too.
Oh… your Dad?
Your dad is putting every doctor, nurse, health care professional, essential worker needlessly at risk… for money.
It’s not a moral thingy.
If it was a moral thingy only your dad world need to worry.
This is a society thing. That’s the miss the money thinkers forget.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 20 @ 4:14 pm
As far as children going to school because they seem to be unaffected………they all go home to older people, perhaps carrying to them? Teachers, staff are older people. If you think small community, elementary kids, maybe 20/class that’s one thing. Here in collar counties, teachers interact with 150-200 students per day in jr high and high schools to say nothing of schools with 3,000 students in the building. THat’s alot of exposure for everyone.
Comment by Ano Monday, May 4, 20 @ 4:51 pm
Anon, agreed. Seems the asymptomatic aspect is what’s being forgotten by some. I also remember a comment here when this all got started along the lines of preferring to look back when it’s over, that oops, guess we overreacted, instead of the opposite.
Comment by illinoyed Monday, May 4, 20 @ 5:39 pm
====Working age people are not affected by the very numbers released===
We also don’t know what the long term health consequences are for those that have “recovered.”
Comment by Pundent Monday, May 4, 20 @ 5:44 pm
@OW. Respectfully, it’s not just your “society.” Maybe the economic shutdown isn’t hurting you. Frankly, it’s not hurting me. That doesn’t mean I think it’s right. People die. It happens. People die in wars, people die in car crashes and people die in epidemics. We all do what we can to minimize it, within reason. Your condescension is preventing you from even acknowledging that it is past time to have a discussion about what is reasonable. Understand something, a large number of people are actively being harmed by their own government.
Comment by ExpletiveDeleted Monday, May 4, 20 @ 6:32 pm
=== Maybe the economic shutdown isn’t hurting you.===
Maybe it is, but I’m not trading family, friends, people i don’t know because of money.
You may… but I’m not.
===People die. It happens.===
So cavalier. How sad you are. You must not care for too many people.
I can’t think of a doctor right now, a nurse, that has said… “welp people die”… unless you like siding with…
Dr. Oz, Dr. Phil, Dr. Drew…
===People die in wars, people die in car crashes and people die in epidemics.===
So money should be what society should save… wealth?
Like i said, you can’t convince me that your personal interactions would make it seem “ok” to trade some you care for or love so “appleby’s” can open.
=== Your condescension is preventing you from even acknowledging that it is past time to have a discussion about what is reasonable.===
No. Keep up.
When this state, or ANY state can show 14 days of decline, then that’s past time.
I think it must be even sadder if this pandemic isn’t effecting you, but choosing wealth and money over people you may care about… whew… you must be a treat.
=== Understand something, a large number of people are actively being harmed by their own government.===
Narrator: Polling says otherwise. Polling says this is an ignorant statement.
A large number in your bubble? Maybe.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 20 @ 6:41 pm
=== People die in wars===
When we start selling bonds to fund people being infected and dying for Covid 19 so “Appleby’s” can be open… lemme know.
People die in war… Geez… how dense.
“Buy coronavirus bonds. Support the effort to infect your family member”
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 20 @ 6:46 pm
=Working age people are not affected by the very numbers released. If you are older or immune compromised, stay home. Working age folks, time to work.=
Who appointed you to speak for “working age people”? Answer- no body.
Your comment is absurd, many working age people (like me) are vulnerable.
As loud as this micro-minority of anti-science, anti-intellectual group has been they are the minority thankfully. That knowledge gives me faith in man.
Comment by JS Mill Monday, May 4, 20 @ 7:07 pm
Re: Asymptomatic infectees. The aircraft carrier U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt had 40% of crew infected and asymptomatic, spreading it like wildfire. You put out wildfires by firebreaks and backfires, not spraying gasoline on it. Allowing a return to “normal” too soon will cause more cases, deaths and suffering–far much more than economic issues ever could. The faster we flatten the curve into the ground, the faster everybody can get back to normal. Ignoring science and facts do not make them go away.
Comment by revvedup Monday, May 4, 20 @ 7:18 pm
@OW “…what a treat you must be.” I see that you have a masterful argument so I think we’re done. I’ll leave you with this: This is going to pass and when it does I hope that the decisions we’ve made as a nation will turn out to have helped more than they’ve hurt, but I’m not optimistic. Be well.
Comment by ExpletiveDeleted Monday, May 4, 20 @ 7:47 pm
- ExpletiveDeleted -
(Sigh)
The name of this whole post is:
“So, you think Illinois’ order is harsh?”
That’s an opinion.
Your choices? You must be a peach.
Arbitrarily…
===Working age folks, time to work.===
For the love of Pete… “telling” someone to work… because money means more than that person’s life… to you… arbitrarily.
===I see that you have a masterful argument===
Your masterful argument, people die, they should… money is more important than lives.
Now you see why it doesn’t bother me, your argument is cold, callous, and quite ignorant to actual medicine and logic.
===I hope that the decisions we’ve made as a nation will turn out to have helped more than they’ve hurt, but I’m not optimistic.===
Let’s be crystal clear;
Your measure will be economic. That’s not me guessing, that’s me reading. My measure will be the humanity of it all and the lives saved as we move forward. Collectively. We will see.
Be well too, stay safe, “all lives”.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 20 @ 8:05 pm
== they all go home to older people ==
Back when we had school, grandparents often served as after school babysitters until the working parent(s) got home.
Today, if you are a single parent that still has to work, you have to find someone to watch the kids … and that is often a parent or close friend.
Comment by RNUG Monday, May 4, 20 @ 9:05 pm
We need to be able to weigh out our own risks and make our own decisions. I follow the suggestions that the government has pounded into our heads for the last 75 or so days. The government has had its say. Now we the people need to take responsibility and do what is right on our own. Some will willfully try to make things worse. That needs to be dealt with. But most want to avoid the virus and live free and in peace.
Comment by Tim42358 Monday, May 4, 20 @ 9:24 pm
=We need to be able to weigh out our own risks and make our own decisions=
Have you checked the polling on this? The vast majority of people aren’t clamoring to go back to work. We haven’t reached phase 1 of the federal guidelines and are still working our way through Pritzker’s three Ts. You can’t simply order things back to normal. As has been said many times, we’re not at home because of the government it’s the virus. Lifting restrictions with no plan to deal with the virus fixes nothing and likely makes a bad situation a lot worse.
Comment by Pundent Tuesday, May 5, 20 @ 6:59 am