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* Jon Seidel at the Sun-Times…
A month after acknowledging an impasse over whether Chicago police should make a record each time they point a gun at a person, it appears state and city lawyers will put the question to a federal judge.
Attorney General Lisa Madigan’s office filed a motion Wednesday to partially lift a stay of her lawsuit seeking a consent decree to govern reforms at the Chicago Police Department. That stay has given her office a chance to negotiate with City Hall.
Now, partially lifting the stay over just the handgun issue would likely put that matter in the hands of U.S. District Judge Robert Dow.
“Focused litigation on a single, limited issue” could play out at the same time as the consent decree approval process, Assistant Attorney General Cara Hendrickson wrote in Wednesday’s motion.
* The Question: Should police be required to fill out a form when they point their gun at someone? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please.
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:18 pm
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
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The biggest issue with policing in Chicago and elsewhere is lack of accountability. Anything that can be done to ensure that police are held accountable for the actions is a critical step in the right direction.
Obviously, this one issue is a small part of the larger problem, but it would still be useful.
Comment by Actual Red Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:21 pm
In understand that abuses have occurred. Its a fact.
But we cannot overregulate every single action. Do we require a report when a stun gun is used? Stun gun is pulled out. Chase over 80mph? Etc.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:22 pm
I don’t understand the objections, not sure the sought after purpose provides much either.
Comment by Rutro Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:24 pm
What is the objection? They have computers in the cars. What is so difficult?
Comment by d.p.gumby Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:31 pm
If you point a gun at someone, you are one reaction away from killing them. That’s serious. Recording the event does not seem unreasonable.
Comment by Ebenezer Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:36 pm
Anyone pointing a gun at another individual is NOT in any way by anybody OK!
I wonder how many of you saying ‘no’ are not Black and have never had a gun pointed at you.
Comment by Justice Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:36 pm
they should have to fill out a form AND have the body camera footage reviewed by an oversight panel that includes at least one elected member of the public. there’s no body camera footage because you turned the camera off or otherwise interfered with the recording? you’re fired.
Comment by Homer J. Quinn Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:42 pm
Voted yes. I get no one likes paperwork but I think knowing how often an officer threatens to kill someone is important. And that is what they are doing when they point their gun at someone.
Kinda wondering how they are going to define “pointing at someone” though. Like if it’s drawn and is just pointing off to the side a bit, Or even pointed at the ground, I would totally still feel threatened.
Comment by Perrid Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:45 pm
Wow.
A lot of you guys never had to patrol many parts of our cities, at night, in darkened areas, when there are unidentified silent young men looking back at you, huh?
Glad you’re not cops.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:46 pm
Obviously this varies from city to city, but it wasn’t all that long ago that it wasn’t uncommon that a cop could go his or her entire career without drawing their weapon. To think that we’ve gone from such an infrequent happening to questioning whether or not they should be required to complete a form when they do so is pretty remarkable.
Comment by Pundent Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:47 pm
I believe filling out a form is the least they should do. It is a tough job, and is sometimes necessary, but should not be done lightly. Quite a few bad eggs have made poor decisions with their firearms and documentation would go a long way in restoring accountability and trust. Plus, if the situation is bad enough that you point your gun at someone, is filling out a form all that big of a burden?
Comment by Ole' Nelson Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:48 pm
I voted yes, as it pertains to most department rules concerning the use of deadly force. Most departments require it now for certification. All instances of the use of deadly force should be documented.
Comment by Cable Line Beer Gardener Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:48 pm
Yes, a use of force report should be completed in every instance. And I’d take it even further, I would suggest commissioning a 4 year study using a form similar to the Traffic Stop Data Sheet and require officers to complete it across the state.
Comment by Kayak Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:49 pm
Perhaps a police officer can correct me but don’t they fill out a report after each interaction anyway?
Comment by Demoralized Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:50 pm
Yes. Are the cops saying that it’s such a normal event to pull out their gun and point it at someone that they would get inundated by paperwork? I don’t buy it. Like others have said, this is one reaction away from a shooting death or serious injury. There needs to be accountability.
I also don’t accept the “you guys are on the front lines” argument used to denigrate this idea. If the situation is so bad that you can’t walk around at night without your pistol drawn, then you have a bigger problem than paperwork.
Comment by Norseman Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:58 pm
Yes, and why not? Too inconvenient? An annoyance? They are on the clock, the city pays them. They are to do as they are told.
Comment by wondering Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 3:58 pm
They shouldn’t have to fill out a form every time they point a gun, just every time they pull the trigger.
Comment by Dead Head Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:00 pm
How many multi-million dollar settlements do we need to pay before we try to implement some modest accountability on the men and women we trust and pay to keep us safe?
They should have to log every time they unholster their weapon. I am not sympathetic to the FOP’s position on this.
Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:07 pm
I voted yes. Undrawn guns can’t destroy lives, including the thought life and mental health status of professionals wielding guns. What’s a bit of paperwork compared to a lifetime of guilt?
Comment by Dome Gnome Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:14 pm
V man, I hope you’re not a cop
Comment by Cheryl44 Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:15 pm
I voted no as I do not see how this protects police …. and that is ALL I care about in these cases.
Comment by I Miss Bentohs Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:19 pm
I would be shocked if a police officer did not have a o file a report when a stun gun is used or a car chase over 80 mph. In Chicago I don’t even believe they can give chase at any speed
And I bet with technology pretty soon it will tell if an officer unholsters a weapon but as said before with computers in car probably not onerous to make a report
Comment by DuPage Saint Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:19 pm
It is standard protocol for law enforcement officers to make detailed reports every time an incident occurs. If an incident occurs that warrants pulling your firearm, it defies logic that that fact should not be included in the report.
Comment by Newcomer Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:23 pm
—Do we require a report when a stun gun is used? Stun gun is pulled out. Chase over 80mph? Etc.
If you are using force of any sort or extreme measures (over 80 mph is in most cases other than on an interstate) then yes you should be making a report. If you aren’t reporting such events, why are you doing it in the first place?
Comment by Archpundit Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:27 pm
“Undrawn guns can’t destroy lives”
Really? James Camp was my friend and I prefer the mentality draw the gun and do not die. Sorry, but his case still makes me mad and I never understand this silly statement the guy resisting arrest was shot needlessly because he did not have a gun. I wish James or his partner shot and we could have watched a heckuva young man grow up.
As for the poll, I voted no as I never want a cop to hesitate in drawing a gun and protecting themselves.
Comment by Lurker Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:29 pm
===when there are unidentified silent young men looking back at you, huh?
AKA Citizens.
Comment by Archpundit Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:30 pm
===ll, I voted no as I never want a cop to hesitate in drawing a gun and protecting themselves.
Why would they hesitate if they have cause and can justify it? Is thinking a bad thing for police officers? Most I know are smart enough to make decisions based on a reason.
Comment by Archpundit Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:31 pm
I vote no. What happens the first time a cop does not pull a gun because the amount of reporting to do so has become onerous and they or someone else get hurt or worse as a result. It would not surprise me that over time the reporting requirement will grow to appease people/groups to the point where eventually cops may not want to pull guns on a borderline situation and either a cop or someone else gets shot or hurt as a result.
Comment by BigLou Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:34 pm
I would expect many officers to have their guns drawn as soon as they arrive on scene of a “felony in progress” call. Waste of time to do the additional paperwork, they already have body cams, and if a citizen makes a report of having a gun pointed at them unnecessarily, there should be an investigation using the recorded data.
Comment by Stuntman Bob's Brother Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:35 pm
What is the track record of the invreased paperwork for incident reports demanded by the ACLU?
Less stops because the paperwork is too cumbersome and higher crime.
Good intentions sometimes produce disastrous consequences
Comment by Lucky Pierre Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:39 pm
I voted yes. If they’re doing their job properly they should have nothing to worry about. More accountability is a good thing especially when it’s on the tax payers’ dime.
Comment by Mr.Black Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:43 pm
–I would expect many officers to have their guns drawn as soon as they arrive on scene of a “felony in progress” call. –
And they already write reports on those. So where’s the “extra paperwork?”
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:48 pm
I want public knowledge of which officers are more likely to point a weapon at someone. Then I want to hear from their Captain the justification for it being drawn. Put it all up on the department website. Updated monthly. You pull a gun on someone, you better have a very good reason. As a public citizen, if I did it, everyone would know about it from the news. What’s good for me should be good for them.
Comment by Papa2008 Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:48 pm
==I never want a cop to hesitate in drawing a gun and protecting themselves.==
I’ll see your James Camp and raise you one Philando Castile, Terence Crutcher, Samuel DeBose, and Walter Scott
Comment by Jocko Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:49 pm
I’m a reluctant yes. Reluctant because I’m afraid this data collection will evolve into what Papa2008 above thinks is a great idea where said data can be presented out of context.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 5:10 pm
Oh, for pete’s sake. Has anyone ever seen a CPD arrest/incident/supplemental report form? The boxes that have to be checked or filled in number in the dozens.
So what’s the problem with one more box? Weapon drawn: yes/no It takes two seconds.
Comment by JoanP Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 5:10 pm
==- Lurker - Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 4:29 pm:==
You should probably blame Kenny King.
Comment by Precinct Captain Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 5:28 pm
“there are unidentified silent young men looking back at you”
Please tell me I’m missing sarcasm and this isn’t serious. Is the standard for lethal force “I had to shoot the kid. He looked at me.”?
Comment by Cog Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 5:42 pm
Yes. If the incident is serious enough a weapon is drawn, there needs to be a report.
Comment by FormerParatrooper Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 5:46 pm
Votes Yes.
don’t point a gun at anything that you are not prepared to destroy.
corollary is Don’t startle people carrying guns.
na
Comment by Matt Vernau Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 5:53 pm
AA makes a decent point about it being misrepresented, but let me offer a different take–Gerry/Jerry/Geri/Whatever was a big part of Compstat’s use in New York and is a big reason it was so badly run. Instead of using data to identify trend, he turned into a tool to evaluate officers. Compstat data was available, but not understandable to most.
Having the data publicly available allows everyone to do some analysis of it and offers checks all the way around. It also could be a tool to keep it from being used as a simple yes no tool for evaluation as a statistic and instead a tool for police supervisors to see how officers react and then train.
Comment by Archpundit Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 6:32 pm
Arch, point well made, point well taken.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 7:07 pm
–James Camp was my friend and I prefer the mentality draw the gun and do not die.–
How is it possible that you know what Camp’s “mentality” was at that time?
Do you really believe police officers in fear of their lives will hesitate to pull their weapons because of “paperwork?”
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 9:44 pm
I voted “yes”.
One of the most important things a police department can have is a reporting system that is user friendly and fast to use.
ISP had an in house designed reporting system called “ICase” that CPD also partnered with when it was designed. It was slow, clunky and not user friendly. It was also time consuming to use. It changed the department. Troopers began to avoid arresting offenders because ICase was such a pain to use.
It was eventually dumped. They are now using a system that is pretty good that was designed and used by several other state police agencies. It has helped ISP move back toward better executing its core mission.
Don’t underestimate the power of red tape.
Comment by Freezeup Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 10:12 pm
Kudos to the Chicago Police. But there is definitely a relationship problem with some of the communities that are plagued by high crime. Anything to improve the situation is important. This measure, if approved, needs to be communicated. (first time I heard about this).
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 29, 18 @ 11:18 pm
While I have no statistics, I suspect the trigger is pulled only a fraction of the times the gun is pulled. The narrative cops are trigger happy guys who shoot first and ask questions later. Wouldn’t seeing how few times they actually pull the trigger help?
If I am wrong, analyzing this help us analyze options on non-lethal options such as bean bags guns or tazers.
Comment by the Patriot Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 8:11 am
As retired LE, it is not the regular report, it is the extra report. Most police officers want to work, it is the Monday morning quarterbacking on possibly every action we take. If the politicians, special interest groups or the news organizations analyze these reports 6 ways to Sundays, you will get more of a reactive police Department and not a proactive one.
Comment by Anon Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 8:36 am
Anon,
When the city is paying out many 10s of millions in settlements per year, don’t you think a little analysis might be beneficial?
Comment by PublicServant Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 8:43 am
Publicservant - i am sure this is already been analyzed. Mistakes will be made and because of certain law firms will not accept an apology for an honest mistakes. The want a lot of money not a little money. the city needs to take a little more time researching the incident before settling but then again this is Cook County do you really want to trust a jury.
Comment by Anon Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 10:06 am
not to split hairs but getting someones attention with a drawn weapon is far more valuable tool than average citizens can imagine. Dont point if you dont intend to shoot . Being prepared to defend yourself in case someone might be considinging drawing down on you always a good thing. To have to write it up seems silly unless there are shots fired.
Comment by NorthsideNoMore Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 1:24 pm
Am I missing something here but the violence in the Chitown is out of control. So you want to place more burdens on the thin blue line who is trying to stop it.
Comment by theCardinal Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 1:33 pm
==Am I missing something here but the violence in the Chitown is out of control. So you want to place more burdens on the thin blue line who is trying to stop it.==
Am I missing something here but how does filling in some more blanks on some paper burden the thin blue line?
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 2:34 pm
Because it usually is a separate form and the more groups involved in it the more fields to complete. Body cameras are they way to go but technology has not made it to be the perfect solution. Then there comes the contracts to maintain them along with storage costs for the cloud, etc. Most police officers want to arrest the bad guys and help the good people and most of the time we are good at it. Once in awhile it goes sideways from good police or bad police though that is true in any profession.
Comment by Anon Thursday, Aug 30, 18 @ 3:39 pm
==a seperate form==
Oh my. Someone get my smelling salts.
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Friday, Aug 31, 18 @ 7:18 am
Gun pointing is serious business.
Comment by James Knell Thursday, Sep 13, 18 @ 2:56 pm